From pgsql-hackers-owner+M3040@hub.org Thu Jun  8 00:31:01 2000
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From: "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] DROP COLUMN status
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:07:44 +0900
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-hackers-owner@hub.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@hub.org]On
> Behalf Of Bruce Momjian
> 
> Can someone comment on where we are with DROP COLUMN?
>

I've already committed my trial implementation 3 months ago.
They are $ifdef'd by _DROP_COLUMN_HACK__.
Please enable the feature and evaluate it.
You could enable the feature without initdb.

Regards.

Hiroshi Inoue
Inoue@tpf.co.jp
 

From Inoue@tpf.co.jp Thu Jun  8 02:03:27 2000
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From: "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] DROP COLUMN status
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:05:24 +0900
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us]
> Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 1:58 PM
> 
> [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ]
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pgsql-hackers-owner@hub.org 
> [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@hub.org]On
> > > Behalf Of Bruce Momjian
> > > 
> > > Can someone comment on where we are with DROP COLUMN?
> > >
> > 
> > I've already committed my trial implementation 3 months ago.
> > They are $ifdef'd by _DROP_COLUMN_HACK__.
> > Please enable the feature and evaluate it.
> > You could enable the feature without initdb.
> 
> OK, can you explain how it works, and add any needed documentation so we
> can enable it.
>

First it's only a trial so I don't implement it completely.
Especially I don't completely drop related objects
(FK_constraint,triggers,views etc). I don't know whether
we could drop them properly or not.

The implementation makes the dropped column invisible by
changing its attnum to -attnum - offset(currently 20) and
attnam to ("*already Dropped%d",attnum). It doesn't touch
the table at all. After dropping a column insert/update
operation regards the column as NULL and other related
stuff simply ignores the column.

Regards.

Hiroshi Inoue
Inoue@tpf.co.jp

From tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us Thu Jun  8 10:20:34 2000
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To: "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
cc: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
        "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] DROP COLUMN status 
In-reply-to: <000f01bfd10f$893798a0$2801007e@tpf.co.jp> 
References: <000f01bfd10f$893798a0$2801007e@tpf.co.jp>
Comments: In-reply-to "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
	message dated "Thu, 08 Jun 2000 15:05:24 +0900"
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:20:11 -0400
Message-ID: <15722.960474011@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Status: ORr

"Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp> writes:
> The implementation makes the dropped column invisible by
> changing its attnum to -attnum - offset(currently 20) and
> attnam to ("*already Dropped%d",attnum).

Ugh.  No wonder you had to hack so many places in such an ugly fashion.
Why not leave the attnum as-is, and just add a bool saying "column is
dropped" to pg_attribute?  As long as the parser ignores columns marked
that way for field lookup and expansion of *, it seems the rest of the
system wouldn't need to treat dropped columns specially in any way.

			regards, tom lane

From pgsql-hackers-owner+M3094@hub.org Thu Jun  8 15:58:30 2000
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: Hiroshi Inoue <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>,
        PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] DROP COLUMN status 
In-reply-to: <200006081541.LAA01566@candle.pha.pa.us> 
References: <200006081541.LAA01566@candle.pha.pa.us>
Comments: In-reply-to Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
	message dated "Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:41:43 -0400"
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 15:52:43 -0400
Message-ID: <19687.960493963@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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>>>> The implementation makes the dropped column invisible by
>>>> changing its attnum to -attnum - offset(currently 20) and
>>>> attnam to ("*already Dropped%d",attnum).
>> 
>> Ugh.  No wonder you had to hack so many places in such an ugly fashion.
>> Why not leave the attnum as-is, and just add a bool saying "column is
>> dropped" to pg_attribute?  As long as the parser ignores columns marked
>> that way for field lookup and expansion of *, it seems the rest of the
>> system wouldn't need to treat dropped columns specially in any way.

> If we leave it as positive, don't we have to change user applications
> that query pg_attribute so they also know to skip it?

Good point, but I think user applications that query pg_attribute
are likely to have trouble anyway: if they're expecting a consecutive
series of attnums then they're going to lose no matter what.

			regards, tom lane

From hannu@tm.ee Sat Jun 10 01:02:57 2000
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
CC: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>,
        PostgreSQL Development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] ALTER TABLE DROP COLUMN
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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> Seems we have 4 DROP COLUMN ideas:
> 
>         Method                                                  Advantage
>         -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 1       invisible column marked by negative attnum              fast
> 2       invisible column marked by is_dropped column            fast
> 3       make copy of table without column                       col removed
> 4       make new tuples in existing table without column        col removed

IIRC there was a fifth idea, a variation of 2 that would work better
with 
inheritance -

5   all columns have is_real_column attribute that is true for all
coluns 
present in that relation, so situations like

create table tab_a(a_i int);
create table tab_b(b_i int) inherits(tab_a);
alter table tab_a add column c_i int;

can be made to work.

It would also require clients to ignore all missing columns that backend
can 
pass to them as nulls (which is usually quite cheap in bandwith usage)
in 
case of "SELECT **" queries.

We could even rename attno to attid to make folks aware that it is not
be 
assumed to be continuous.

> Folks, we had better choose one and get started.
> 
> Number 1 Hiroshi has ifdef'ed out in the code.  Items 1 and 2 have
> problems with backend code and 3rd party code not seeing the dropped
> columns, or having gaps in the attno numbering.

If we want to make ADD COLUMN to work with inheritance wihout having to 
rewrite every single tuple in both parent and inherited tables, we will 
have to accept the fact that there are caps in in attno numbering.

> Number 3 has problems
> with making it an atomic operation, and number 4 is described below.

Nr 4 has still problems with attno numbering _changing_ during drop
which 
could either be better or worse for client software than having gaps -
in both cases client must be prepared to deal with runtime changes in 
attribute definition.

--------------
Hannu

From Inoue@tpf.co.jp Sat Jun 10 01:01:01 2000
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From: "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>, "Tom Lane" <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Cc: "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>,
        "PostgreSQL Development" <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] ALTER TABLE DROP COLUMN
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:43:26 +0900
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-hackers-owner@hub.org 
> [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@hub.org]On Behalf Of Bruce Momjian
> 
> Seems we have 4 DROP COLUMN ideas:
> 
> 	Method                                                  Advantage
> 	-----------------------------------------------------------------
> 1	invisible column marked by negative attnum		fast
> 2	invisible column marked by is_dropped column		fast
> 3	make copy of table without column			col removed
> 4	make new tuples in existing table without column	col removed
> 
> Folks, we had better choose one and get started.  
> 
> Number 1 Hiroshi has ifdef'ed out in the code.  Items 1 and 2 have
> problems with backend code and 3rd party code not seeing the dropped
> columns,

Hmm,doesn't  *not seeing*  mean the column is dropped ?

> or having gaps in the attno numbering. Number 3 has problems
> with making it an atomic operation, and number 4 is described below. 
>

Don't forget another important point.

Currently even DROP TABLE doesn't remove related objects completely.
And I don't think I could remove objects related to the dropping column
completely using 1)2) in ALTER TABLE DROP COLUMN implementation.

Using 3)4) we should not only remove objects as 1)2) but also
change attnum-s in all objects related to the relation. Otherwise
PostgreSQL would do the wrong thing silently.

Regards.

Hiroshi Inoue
Inoue@tpf.co.jp 

From dhogaza@pacifier.com Sat Jun 10 01:01:06 2000
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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 21:57:58 -0700
To: "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>,
        "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
        "Tom Lane" <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] ALTER TABLE DROP COLUMN
Cc: "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>,
        "PostgreSQL Development" <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
In-Reply-To: <EKEJJICOHDIEMGPNIFIJEELACBAA.Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
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At 01:43 PM 6/10/00 +0900, Hiroshi Inoue wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pgsql-hackers-owner@hub.org 
>> [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@hub.org]On Behalf Of Bruce Momjian
>> 
>> Seems we have 4 DROP COLUMN ideas:
>> 
>> 	Method                                                  Advantage
>> 	-----------------------------------------------------------------
>> 1	invisible column marked by negative attnum		fast
>> 2	invisible column marked by is_dropped column		fast
>> 3	make copy of table without column			col removed
>> 4	make new tuples in existing table without column	col removed
>> 
>> Folks, we had better choose one and get started.  

Oracle gives you the choice between the "cheating" fast method(s) and
the "real" slow (really slow?) real method.

So there's at least real world experience by virtue of example by
the world's most successful database supplier that user control
over "hide the column" and "really delete the column" is valuable.

It really makes a lot of sense to give such a choice.  If one
does so by "hiding", at a later date one would think the choice
of "really deleting" would be a possibility.  I don't know if
Oracle does this...

If not, they might not care.  In today's world, there are bazillions
of dollars for Oracle to scoop up from users who could just as easily
be PG users - all those "we'll fail if don't IPO 'cause we'll never
have any customers" database-backed websites :)



- Don Baccus, Portland OR <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
  Nature photos, on-line guides, Pacific Northwest
  Rare Bird Alert Service and other goodies at
  http://donb.photo.net.

From tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us Sat Jun 10 01:31:04 2000
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To: Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
cc: "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>,
        "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
        "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>,
        "PostgreSQL Development" <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] ALTER TABLE DROP COLUMN 
In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.20000609215758.0116d850@mail.pacifier.com> 
References: <200006091249.IAA18730@candle.pha.pa.us> <3.0.1.32.20000609215758.0116d850@mail.pacifier.com>
Comments: In-reply-to Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
	message dated "Fri, 09 Jun 2000 21:57:58 -0700"
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:14:37 -0400
Message-ID: <6203.960614077@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Status: OR

Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com> writes:
> Oracle gives you the choice between the "cheating" fast method(s) and
> the "real" slow (really slow?) real method.

> So there's at least real world experience by virtue of example by
> the world's most successful database supplier that user control
> over "hide the column" and "really delete the column" is valuable.

Sure, but you don't need any help from the database to do "really delete
the column".  SELECT INTO... is enough, and it's not even any slower
than the implementations under discussion.

So I'm satisfied if we offer the "hide the column" approach.

Has anyone thought about what happens to table constraints that use the
doomed column?  Triggers, RI rules, yadda yadda?

Has anyone thought about undoing a DELETE COLUMN?  The data is still
there, at least in tuples that have not been updated, so it's not
totally unreasonable.

			regards, tom lane

From dhogaza@pacifier.com Sat Jun 10 09:30:59 2000
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] ALTER TABLE DROP COLUMN 
Cc: "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>,
        "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
        "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>,
        "PostgreSQL Development" <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
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At 01:14 AM 6/10/00 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com> writes:
>> Oracle gives you the choice between the "cheating" fast method(s) and
>> the "real" slow (really slow?) real method.
>
>> So there's at least real world experience by virtue of example by
>> the world's most successful database supplier that user control
>> over "hide the column" and "really delete the column" is valuable.
>
>Sure, but you don't need any help from the database to do "really delete
>the column".  SELECT INTO... is enough, and it's not even any slower
>than the implementations under discussion.
>
>So I'm satisfied if we offer the "hide the column" approach.

<shrug> I wouldn't put a "real" drop column at the top of my list
of priorities, but there is something to be said for user convenience.



- Don Baccus, Portland OR <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
  Nature photos, on-line guides, Pacific Northwest
  Rare Bird Alert Service and other goodies at
  http://donb.photo.net.

From tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us Sun Jun 11 12:31:03 2000
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To: "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
cc: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
        "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>,
        "PostgreSQL Development" <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] ALTER TABLE DROP COLUMN 
In-reply-to: <EKEJJICOHDIEMGPNIFIJEELACBAA.Inoue@tpf.co.jp> 
References: <EKEJJICOHDIEMGPNIFIJEELACBAA.Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
Comments: In-reply-to "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
	message dated "Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:43:26 +0900"
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:22:42 -0400
Message-ID: <9500.960740562@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Status: ORr

>> Seems we have 4 DROP COLUMN ideas:
>> Method                                                  Advantage
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> 1	invisible column marked by negative attnum		fast
>> 2	invisible column marked by is_dropped column		fast
>> 3	make copy of table without column			col removed
>> 4	make new tuples in existing table without column	col removed

Bruce and I talked about this by phone yesterday, and we realized that
none of these are very satisfactory.  #1 and #2 both have the flaw that
applications that examine pg_attribute will probably break: they will
see a sequence of attnum values with gaps in it.  And what should the
rel's relnatts field be set to?  #3 and #4 are better on that point,
but they leave us with the problem of renumbering references to columns
after the dropped one in constraints, rules, PL functions, etc.

Furthermore, there is a closely related problem that none of these
approaches give us much help on: recursive ALTER TABLE ADD COLUMN.
Right now, ADD puts the new column at the end of each table it's added
to, which often means that it gets a different column number in child
tables than in parent tables.  That leads to havoc for pg_dump.

I think the only clean solution is to create a clear distinction between
physical and logical column numbers.  Each pg_attribute tuple would need
two attnum fields, and pg_class would need two relnatts fields as well.
A column once created would never change its physical column number, but
its logical column number might change as a consequence of adding or
dropping columns before it.  ADD COLUMN would ensure that a column added
to child tables receives the same logical column number as it has in the
parent table, thus solving the dump/reload problem.  DROP COLUMN would
assign an invalid logical column number to dropped columns.  They could
be numbered zero except that we'd probably still want a unique index on
attrelid+attnum, and the index would complain.  I'd suggest using
Hiroshi's idea: give a dropped column a logical attnum equal to
-(physical_attnum + offset).

With this approach, internal operations on tuples would all use
physical column numbers, but operations that interface to the outside
world would present a view of only the valid logical columns.  For
example, the parser would only allow logical columns to be referenced
by name; "SELECT *" would expand to valid logical columns in logical-
column-number order; COPY would send or receive valid logical columns
in logical-column-number order; etc.

Stored rules and so forth probably should store physical column numbers
so that they need not be modified during column add/drop.

This would require looking at all the places in the backend to determine
whether they should be working with logical or physical column numbers,
but the design is such that most all places would want to be using
physical numbers, so I don't think it'd be too painful.

Although I'd prefer to give the replacement columns two new names
(eg, "attlnum" and "attpnum") to ensure we find all uses, this would
surely break applications that examine pg_attribute.  For compatibility
we'd have to recycle "attnum" and "relnatts" to indicate logical column
number and logical column count, while adding new fields (say "attpnum"
and "relnpatts") for the physical number and count.

Comments?

			regards, tom lane

From pgsql-hackers-owner+M3184@hub.org Mon Jun 12 09:29:17 2000
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From: "Hiroshi Inoue" <Inoue@tpf.co.jp>
To: "Tom Lane" <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Cc: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
        "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>,
        "PostgreSQL Development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] ALTER TABLE DROP COLUMN 
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:40:47 +0900
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Lane [mailto:tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us]
> 
> >> Seems we have 4 DROP COLUMN ideas:
> >> Method                                                  Advantage
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> 1	invisible column marked by negative attnum		fast
> >> 2	invisible column marked by is_dropped column		fast
> >> 3	make copy of table without column			col removed
> >> 4	make new tuples in existing table without column	col removed
>

Hmm,I've received no pg-ML mails for more than 1 day.
What's happened with pgsql ML ? 
 
> Bruce and I talked about this by phone yesterday, and we realized that
> none of these are very satisfactory.  #1 and #2 both have the flaw that
> applications that examine pg_attribute will probably break: they will
> see a sequence of attnum values with gaps in it.  And what should the
> rel's relnatts field be set to?  #3 and #4 are better on that point,
> but they leave us with the problem of renumbering references to columns
> after the dropped one in constraints, rules, PL functions, etc.
> 
> Furthermore, there is a closely related problem that none of these
> approaches give us much help on: recursive ALTER TABLE ADD COLUMN.
> Right now, ADD puts the new column at the end of each table it's added
> to, which often means that it gets a different column number in child
> tables than in parent tables.  That leads to havoc for pg_dump.
>

Inheritance is one of the reason why I didn't take #2. I don't understand 
marking is_dropped is needed or not when pg_attribute is overhauled
for inheritance.
I myself have never wanted to use current inheritance functionality
mainly because of this big flaw. Judging from the recent discussion
about oo(though I don't understand details),the change seems to be
needed in order to make inheritance functionality really useful. 
  
> I think the only clean solution is to create a clear distinction between
> physical and logical column numbers.  Each pg_attribute tuple would need
> two attnum fields, and pg_class would need two relnatts fields as well.
> A column once created would never change its physical column number, but

I don't understand inheritance well. In the near future wouldn't the
implementation require e.g. attid which is common to all children
of a parent and is never changed ? If so,we would need the third 
attid field which is irrevalent to physical/logical position. If not,
physical column number would be sufficient . 
 
> its logical column number might change as a consequence of adding or
> dropping columns before it.  ADD COLUMN would ensure that a column added
> to child tables receives the same logical column number as it has in the
> parent table, thus solving the dump/reload problem.  DROP COLUMN would
> assign an invalid logical column number to dropped columns.  They could
> be numbered zero except that we'd probably still want a unique index on
> attrelid+attnum, and the index would complain.  I'd suggest using
> Hiroshi's idea: give a dropped column a logical attnum equal to
> -(physical_attnum + offset).
> 
> With this approach, internal operations on tuples would all use
> physical column numbers, but operations that interface to the outside
> world would present a view of only the valid logical columns.  For
> example, the parser would only allow logical columns to be referenced
> by name; "SELECT *" would expand to valid logical columns in logical-
> column-number order; COPY would send or receive valid logical columns
> in logical-column-number order; etc.
> 
> Stored rules and so forth probably should store physical column numbers
> so that they need not be modified during column add/drop.
> 
> This would require looking at all the places in the backend to determine
> whether they should be working with logical or physical column numbers,
> but the design is such that most all places would want to be using
> physical numbers, so I don't think it'd be too painful.
> 
> Although I'd prefer to give the replacement columns two new names
> (eg, "attlnum" and "attpnum") to ensure we find all uses, this would
> surely break applications that examine pg_attribute.  For compatibility
> we'd have to recycle "attnum" and "relnatts" to indicate logical column
> number and logical column count, while adding new fields (say "attpnum"
> and "relnpatts") for the physical number and count.
>

I agree with you that we would add attpnum and change the meaing of
attnum as logical column number for backward compatibility.

Regards.

Hiroshi Inoue
Inoue@tpf.co.jp

From pgsql-hackers-owner+M3050@postgresql.org Thu Jan 11 21:49:43 2001
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:48:36 PST
From: Jeff Davis <jdavis@dynworks.com>
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] alter table drop column
Reply-To: jdavis@dynworks.com
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Status: OR


I read the transcript of the alter table drop column discussion (old
discussion) at http://www.postgresql.org/docs/pgsql/doc/TODO.detail/drop,
and I have something to add:

People mentioned such ideas as a hidden column and a really deleted column,
and it occurred to me that perhaps "vacuum" would be a good option to use.
When a delete was issued, the column would be hidden (by a negative/invalid
logical column number, it appears was the consensus). Upon issuing a
vacuum, it could perform a complete deletion. This method would allow users
to know that the process may take a while (I think the agreed method for a
complete delete was to "select into..." the right columns and leave out the
deleted ones, then delete the old table).

Furthermore, I liked the idea of some kind of "undelete", as long as it was
just hidden. This could apply to anything that is cleaned out with a vacuum
(before it is cleaned out), although I am not sure how feasible this is,
and it isn't particularly important to me.

Regards,
	Jeff

-- 
Jeff Davis
Dynamic Works
jdavis@dynworks.com
http://dynworks.com


