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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com>,
   pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Fix disabled triggers with deferred constraints
References: <200206140507.g5E57om04338@candle.pha.pa.us>
From: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
In-Reply-To: <200206140507.g5E57om04338@candle.pha.pa.us>
Date: 07 Aug 2002 12:10:10 -0400
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Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com> writes:
> > > About as obscure a bug as you can get - without the patch, disabled
> > > triggers for deferred constraints get run anyways. The patch is simple and
> > > works, but the "right" (and more complicated) fix may involve not adding
> > > the trigger to event->dte_item to begin with.
> > 
> > I remember looking at this issue and not doing anything because I
> > couldn't decide whether the test for enabled status should occur when
> > the trigger is queued or when it is executed --- or, perhaps, both?
> > Is there anything in the standard about it?
> 
> Was there any agreement on this?

Any update on this?

Cheers,

Neil

-- 
Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com>
PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC


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To: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>, Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com>,
   pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Fix disabled triggers with deferred constraints 
In-Reply-To: <87it2mfy59.fsf@klamath.dyndns.org> 
References: <200206140507.g5E57om04338@candle.pha.pa.us> <87it2mfy59.fsf@klamath.dyndns.org>
Comments: In-reply-to Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
	message dated "07 Aug 2002 12:10:10 -0400"
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 12:46:23 -0400
Message-ID: <16877.1028738783@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org> writes:
> Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com> writes:
> About as obscure a bug as you can get - without the patch, disabled
> triggers for deferred constraints get run anyways. The patch is simple and
> works, but the "right" (and more complicated) fix may involve not adding
> the trigger to event->dte_item to begin with.
> 
> I remember looking at this issue and not doing anything because I
> couldn't decide whether the test for enabled status should occur when
> the trigger is queued or when it is executed --- or, perhaps, both?
> Is there anything in the standard about it?
>> 
>> Was there any agreement on this?

> Any update on this?

I think we're still waiting for someone to figure out what the behavior
should be per spec.

			regards, tom lane

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From nconway@klamath.dyndns.org Wed Aug  7 14:10:27 2002
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>, Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com>,
   pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Fix disabled triggers with deferred constraints
References: <200206140507.g5E57om04338@candle.pha.pa.us>
	<87it2mfy59.fsf@klamath.dyndns.org> <16877.1028738783@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
In-Reply-To: <16877.1028738783@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Date: 07 Aug 2002 14:09:40 -0400
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Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> writes:
> Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org> writes:
> > Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com> writes:
> > I remember looking at this issue and not doing anything because I
> > couldn't decide whether the test for enabled status should occur when
> > the trigger is queued or when it is executed --- or, perhaps, both?
> > Is there anything in the standard about it?

[...]

> I think we're still waiting for someone to figure out what the behavior
> should be per spec.

I took a brief look at SQL99, but I couldn't find anything regarding
this issue (AFAICS it doesn't mention "disabled triggers" at all). But
given my prior track record for divining information from the
standards, perhaps someone should double-check :-)

I did notice some behavior which we don't implement AFAIK:

        If the constraint mode is /deferred/, then the constraint is
        effectively checked when the constraint mode is changed to
        /immediate/ either explicitely by execution of a <set
        constraints mode statement>, or implicitely at the end of the
        current SQL-transaction.

(SQL99, Section 4.17.1, paragraph 3)

We don't recheck any outstanding deferred constraints when the
constraint mode is explicitly switched back to IMMEDIATE, as the
standard says we should.

Cheers,

Neil

-- 
Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com>
PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC


From pgsql-patches-owner+M4751@postgresql.org Tue Aug 13 00:10:31 2002
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From: Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au>
To: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
cc: pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Fix disabled triggers with deferred constraints
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On 7 Aug 2002, Neil Conway wrote:

> Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> writes:
> > Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org> writes:
> > > Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com> writes:
> > > I remember looking at this issue and not doing anything because I
> > > couldn't decide whether the test for enabled status should occur when
> > > the trigger is queued or when it is executed --- or, perhaps, both?
> > > Is there anything in the standard about it?
> 
> [...]
> 
> > I think we're still waiting for someone to figure out what the behavior
> > should be per spec.
> 
> I took a brief look at SQL99, but I couldn't find anything regarding
> this issue (AFAICS it doesn't mention "disabled triggers" at all). But
> given my prior track record for divining information from the
> standards, perhaps someone should double-check :-)

I had a pretty hard look around SQL99. It does not appear to say anything
explicit about disabling triggers. This should be clear from page 90: 4.35
Triggers. This specifies the trigger descriptor. Those familiar with SQL99
know that it just about mandates that all state information about any
object in the system is recorded in its descriptor. The fact that
enabled/disabled state information is not recorded in the trigger
descriptor suggests that it is only ever enabled.

More over there is no case when a trigger is not executed, according to
10.12 'Execution of triggers'.

I dug deeper, wondering if it may be implicitly disabled given the
disabling of its 'dependencies', shall we call them. Namely: the base
table or the procedure used in the trigger action. Tables cannot be
disabled or made in active. As for the procedure, <SQL procedure
statement>, this expands to SQL which, itself, cannot be 'disabled'.

The spec is a large one and I didn't look at all references to triggers --
since there are hundreds -- but I don't believe that there is any
precedent for an implementation of DISABLE TRIGGER.

FWIW, i think that in the case of deferred triggers they should all be
added to the queue and whether they are executed or not should be
evaluated inside DeferredTriggerExecute() with:

    if(LocTriggerData.tg_trigger->tgenabled == false)
        return;

Gavin




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From pgsql-patches-owner+M4752@postgresql.org Tue Aug 13 00:28:42 2002
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To: Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au>
cc: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Fix disabled triggers with deferred constraints 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0208131342460.22771-100000@linuxworld.com.au> 
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0208131342460.22771-100000@linuxworld.com.au>
Comments: In-reply-to Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au>
	message dated "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:12:15 +1000"
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:28:19 -0400
Message-ID: <22191.1029212899@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au> writes:
> ...The spec is a large one and I didn't look at all references to triggers --
> since there are hundreds -- but I don't believe that there is any
> precedent for an implementation of DISABLE TRIGGER.

Thanks for the dig.  I was hoping we could get some guidance from the
spec, but it looks like not.  How about other implementations --- does
Oracle support disabled triggers?  DB2?  etc?

> FWIW, i think that in the case of deferred triggers they should all be
> added to the queue and whether they are executed or not should be
> evaluated inside DeferredTriggerExecute() with:
>     if(LocTriggerData.tg_trigger->tgenabled == false)
>         return;

So check the state at execution, not when the triggering event occurs.
I don't have any strong reason to object to that, but I have a gut
feeling that it still needs to be thought about...

Let's see, I guess there are several possible changes of state for a
deferred trigger between the triggering event and the end of
transaction:

* Trigger deleted.  Surely the trigger shouldn't be executed, but should
we raise an error or just silently ignore it?  (I suspect right now we
crash :-()

* Trigger created.  In some ideal world we might think that such a
trigger should be fired, but in reality that ain't gonna happen; we're
not going to record every possible event on the speculation that some
trigger for it might be created later in the transaction.

* Trigger disabled.  Your proposal is to not fire it.  Okay, comports
with the deleted case, if we make that behavior be silently-ignore.

* Trigger enabled.  Your proposal is to fire it.  Seems not to comport
with the creation case --- does that bother anyone?

* Trigger changed from not-deferred to deferred.  If we already fired it
for the event, we surely shouldn't fire it again.  I believe the code
gets this case right.

* Trigger changed from deferred to not-deferred.  As Neil was pointing
out recently, this really should cause the trigger to be fired for the
pending event immediately, but we don't get that right at the moment.
(I suppose a stricter interpretation would be to raise an error because
we can't do anything that really comports with the intended behavior
of either case.)

How do these various cases relate?  Can we come up with a unified
rationale?

			regards, tom lane

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From pgsql-patches-owner+M4753@postgresql.org Tue Aug 13 00:56:55 2002
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cc: Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au>,
   Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Fix disabled triggers with deferred constraints
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0208131342460.22771-100000@linuxworld.com.au> <22191.1029212899@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Tom Lane wrote:
> Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au> writes:
>>...The spec is a large one and I didn't look at all references to triggers --
>>since there are hundreds -- but I don't believe that there is any
>>precedent for an implementation of DISABLE TRIGGER.
> 
> Thanks for the dig.  I was hoping we could get some guidance from the
> spec, but it looks like not.  How about other implementations --- does
> Oracle support disabled triggers?  DB2?  etc?

Oracle does for sure. With a complex app (i.e. Oracle Applications) 
being able to disable triggers from time-to-time is *indispensable*. Not 
sure about DB2. My knowledge of MSSQL is getting dated, but as of MSSQL7 
I don't *think* you can disable a trigger.

Joe


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From pgsql-patches-owner+M4755@postgresql.org Tue Aug 13 01:36:42 2002
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Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:38:50 +1000 (EST)
From: Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au>
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
cc: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] Fix disabled triggers with deferred constraints 
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On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Tom Lane wrote:

> Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au> writes:
> > ...The spec is a large one and I didn't look at all references to triggers --
> > since there are hundreds -- but I don't believe that there is any
> > precedent for an implementation of DISABLE TRIGGER.
> 
> Thanks for the dig.  I was hoping we could get some guidance from the
> spec, but it looks like not.  How about other implementations --- does
> Oracle support disabled triggers?  DB2?  etc?

Oracle 8 (and I presume 9) allows you to disable/enable triggers through
alter table and alter trigger. My 8.1.7 documentation is silent on the
cases you mention below and I do not have an oracle installation handy to
test. Anyone?

> 
> > FWIW, i think that in the case of deferred triggers they should all be
> > added to the queue and whether they are executed or not should be
> > evaluated inside DeferredTriggerExecute() with:
> >     if(LocTriggerData.tg_trigger->tgenabled == false)
> >         return;
> 
> So check the state at execution, not when the triggering event occurs.
> I don't have any strong reason to object to that, but I have a gut
> feeling that it still needs to be thought about...
> 
> Let's see, I guess there are several possible changes of state for a
> deferred trigger between the triggering event and the end of
> transaction:
> 
> * Trigger deleted.  Surely the trigger shouldn't be executed, but should
> we raise an error or just silently ignore it?  (I suspect right now we
> crash :-()
> 
> * Trigger created.  In some ideal world we might think that such a
> trigger should be fired, but in reality that ain't gonna happen; we're
> not going to record every possible event on the speculation that some
> trigger for it might be created later in the transaction.

It doesn't need to be an ideal world. We're only talking about deferred
triggers after all. Why couldn't CreateTrgger() just have a look through
deftrig_events, check for its relid and if its in there, call
deferredTriggerAddEvent().

> * Trigger disabled.  Your proposal is to not fire it.  Okay, comports
> with the deleted case, if we make that behavior be silently-ignore.
> 
> * Trigger enabled.  Your proposal is to fire it.  Seems not to comport
> with the creation case --- does that bother anyone?
> 
> * Trigger changed from not-deferred to deferred.  If we already fired it
> for the event, we surely shouldn't fire it again.  I believe the code
> gets this case right.

Agreed.

> * Trigger changed from deferred to not-deferred.  As Neil was pointing
> out recently, this really should cause the trigger to be fired for the
> pending event immediately, but we don't get that right at the moment.
> (I suppose a stricter interpretation would be to raise an error because
> we can't do anything that really comports with the intended behavior
> of either case.)

I think this should generate an error as it doesn't sit well with the
spec IMHO.

Gavin


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From pgsql-general-owner+M33538@postgresql.org Tue Nov 26 03:46:45 2002
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:43:32 +0100
From: Christoph Dalitz <christoph.dalitz@hs-niederrhein.de>
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: [GENERAL] ALTER TRIGGER DISABLE/ENABLE
Message-ID: <20021126094332.58250aef.christoph.dalitz@hs-niederrhein.de>
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Hello,

while there have been suggested some hacks on the system catalog
for disabling/enabling triggers, these have two serious disadvantages:

 - they cannot be done by the owner of the trigger
   (only the DBA has write access to the system catalog)
 - messing in the system catalog for simple DB schema changes makes
   most users feel uneasy

Oracle has an SQL command "ALTER TRIGGER triggername DISABLE|ENABLE".
Were it possible to put this command on the TODO list for a future PG release?

Thanks,

Christoph Dalitz

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From jllachan@nsd.ca Tue Nov 26 14:42:05 2002
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:41:47 -0500
From: Jean-Luc Lachance <jllachan@nsd.ca>
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: Christoph Dalitz <christoph.dalitz@hs-niederrhein.de>,
   pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] ALTER TRIGGER DISABLE/ENABLE
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I think thte sintax should be:

ALTER TABLE DISABLE|ENABLE TRIGGER {trigger name}|ALL



Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> Christoph Dalitz wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > while there have been suggested some hacks on the system catalog
> > for disabling/enabling triggers, these have two serious disadvantages:
> >
> >  - they cannot be done by the owner of the trigger
> >    (only the DBA has write access to the system catalog)
> >  - messing in the system catalog for simple DB schema changes makes
> >    most users feel uneasy
> >
> > Oracle has an SQL command "ALTER TRIGGER triggername DISABLE|ENABLE".
> > Were it possible to put this command on the TODO list for a future PG release?
> 
> Already on TODO list:
> 
>         * Allow triggers to be disabled [trigger]
> 
> I will add your email to the TODO.detail thread.
> 
> --
>   Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
>   pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
>   +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
>   +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
> 
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From christoph.dalitz@hs-niederrhein.de Thu Nov 28 03:35:25 2002
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Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:33:57 +0100
From: Christoph Dalitz <christoph.dalitz@hs-niederrhein.de>
To: Jean-Luc Lachance <jllachan@nsd.ca>
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
   Tino Wildenhain <tino@wildenhain.de>, pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: ALTER TRIGGER DISABLE/ENABLE
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On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:41:47 -0500
Jean-Luc Lachance <jllachan@nsd.ca> wrote:
>
> I think thte sintax should be:
> 
> ALTER TABLE DISABLE|ENABLE TRIGGER {trigger name}|ALL
> 
This would make no sense:

It could be the syntax if the statement for creating a trigger
where "ALTER TABLE ADD TRIGGER".

The statement for creating a trigger is however "CREATE TRIGEER".

Consequently the statement for changing a trigger must be "ALTER TRIGGER"
and not "ALTER TABLE".

Switching off all triggers for an individual table at once would be
convenient of course and can be easily achieved with "ALTER TRIGGER" as well:
just write a little PL/SQL procedure "disable_triggers()" that takes a
tablename as input and disables all triggers on it.

Christoph Dalitz

From pgsql-general-owner+M33790@postgresql.org Thu Nov 28 11:04:17 2002
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From: Jean-Luc Lachance <jllachan@nsd.ca>
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To: Christoph Dalitz <christoph.dalitz@hs-niederrhein.de>
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
   Tino Wildenhain <tino@wildenhain.de>, pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] ALTER TRIGGER DISABLE/ENABLE
References: <200211261853.gAQIrdE00304@candle.pha.pa.us>
		<3DE3CE7B.614EE99E@nsd.ca> <20021128093357.48c9d644.christoph.dalitz@hs-niederrhein.de>
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Sementics.

The trigger belongs to the table. 
The trigger is not modified. 
The ability of the table being modified to call it is modified.  
Plus, if you want all the triggers on a table to be disabled the ALTER
TRIGGER is not enough.

JLL


Christoph Dalitz wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:41:47 -0500
> Jean-Luc Lachance <jllachan@nsd.ca> wrote:
> >
> > I think thte sintax should be:
> >
> > ALTER TABLE DISABLE|ENABLE TRIGGER {trigger name}|ALL
> >
> This would make no sense:
> 
> It could be the syntax if the statement for creating a trigger
> where "ALTER TABLE ADD TRIGGER".
> 
> The statement for creating a trigger is however "CREATE TRIGEER".
> 
> Consequently the statement for changing a trigger must be "ALTER TRIGGER"
> and not "ALTER TABLE".
> 
> Switching off all triggers for an individual table at once would be
> convenient of course and can be easily achieved with "ALTER TRIGGER" as well:
> just write a little PL/SQL procedure "disable_triggers()" that takes a
> tablename as input and disables all triggers on it.
> 
> Christoph Dalitz

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