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Subject: [PATCHES] FW: Win32 unicode vs ICU
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Thread-Topic: Win32 unicode vs ICU
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From: "Magnus Hagander" <mha@sollentuna.net>
To: "PostgreSQL-patches" <pgsql-patches@postgresql.org>
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I just realised this mail didn't go through. Probably because it was too
large for -hackers. So: repost to -patches. Sorry about that. If it's a
duplicate, even more sorry, but I couldn't find it in the archives.

(This may explain that nobody answered me :P)

//Magnus
=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Hagander=20
> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:09 PM
> To: PostgreSQL-development
> Cc: pgsql-hackers-win32@postgresql.org
> Subject: Win32 unicode vs ICU
>=20
> Hi!
>=20
> I've been working with Palles ICU patch to make it work on=20
> win32, and I believe I have it done. While doing it I noticed=20
> that ICU basically converts to UTF16 and back - I previously=20
> thought it worked on UTF8 strings. Based on this I also tried=20
> out an implementation for the win32-unicode problem that does=20
> *not* require ICU. It uses the win32 native functions to map=20
> to utf16 and back, and then to process the text there. And I=20
> got through with much less code than the ICU version, while=20
> doing the same thing.
>=20
> I am unsure of how to proceed. As I see it there are three paths:
> 1) Use native win32 functionality only on win32
> 2) Use ICU functionality only on win32
> 3) Allow both ICU and native functionality, compile time=20
> switch --with-icu (same as unix with the ICU patch)
>=20
>=20
> The main downsides of ICU vs the native ones are:
> * ICU does not accept win32 locale names. When doing=20
> setlocale("sv_se"), for example, win32 will return this in=20
> later calls as "Swedish_Sweden.1252". To get around this in=20
> the ICU patch, I had to implement a lookup map that converts=20
> it back to sv_se for ICU.
>=20
> * ICU is yet another build and runtime dependency, and a=20
> large one (comes in at 11Mb for the DLL files alone in the=20
> win32 download)
>=20
>=20
> I guess that the main upside of it is that we'd get=20
> constistent behaviour - in case there are issues with either=20
> ICU or win32 native they'd otherwise differ. And only one new=20
> codepath. But we already live with the platform-inconsistency today...
>=20
> Another upside is that it handles more encodings in ICU - my=20
> native implementation does *only* UTF8 and relies on existing=20
> functionality to deal with other encodings. It could of=20
> course be extended if necessary, but from what I can tell=20
> UTF8 is the big one.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have attached both patches. For the native version, only=20
> win32_utf8.patch is required.  For the ICU version,=20
> icu_win32.patch is needed and also the files=20
> localemap.c,localemap.pl, iso639 and iso3166 needs to go in=20
> src/backend/port/win32. (the localemap needs to be updated to=20
> do a better-than-linear search, but I wanted to include an example)
>=20
>=20
> Thoughts on the options?
>=20
>=20
> And anohter question - my native patch touches the same=20
> functions as the ICU patch. Can somebody who knows the=20
> internals confirm or deny that these are all the required=20
> locations, or do we need to modify more?
>=20
> (I have run simple tests in swedish locale and both behave=20
> the same and correct, but I'm unsure of exactly how much=20
> would be affected)
>=20
> Finally, the win32 patch also changes the normal path to use=20
> strncoll(). The comment above the function states that we'd=20
> like to use strncoll but it's not available. Well, on win32=20
> it is, so it should provide a speedup on win32. It is=20
> currently not included in the ICU patch, but should probably=20
> be included whichever path we'd chose.
>=20
>=20
> //Magnus
>=20

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C5993C.1E1CB100
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="icu_win32.patch"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Description: icu_win32.patch
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="icu_win32.patch"

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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M72011@postgresql.org Wed Aug 24 15:37:17 2005
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Kevin McArthur Wrote:

> Should the postgresql project also be looking at CLDR for 
> cross-platform unicode support?

Afaict, from the ICU website, ICU too uses CLDR.
Why reinvent the wheel?

... John

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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M72581@postgresql.org Sat Sep  3 16:47:42 2005
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From: Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
cc: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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On Fri, Sep 02, 2005 at 11:42:21AM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> The objection is fundamentally that a platform-specific implementation
> cannot be our long-term goal, and so expending effort on creating one
> seems like a diversion.  If there were a plan put forward showing how
> this is just a useful way-station, and we could see how we'd later get
> rid of the glibc dependency without throwing away the work already done,
> then it would be a different story.

Well, my patch showed that useful locale work can be acheived with
precisely two functions: newlocale and strxfrm_l.

I'm going to talk about two things: one, the code from Apple. Two, how
we present locale support to users.
---
Now, it would be really nice to take Apple's implementation in Darwin
and use that. What I don't understand is the licence of the code in
Darwin. My interpretation is that stuff in:

http://darwinsource.opendarwin.org/10.4.2/Libc-391/locale/

is Apple stuff under APSL, useless to us. And that stuff in:

http://darwinsource.opendarwin.org/10.4.2/Libc-391/locale/FreeBSD/

are just patches to FreeBSD and this under the normal BSD license (no
big header claiming the licence change). The good news is that the
majority of what we need is in patch form. The bad news is that the hub
of the good stuff (newlocale, duplocale, freelocale) is under a big fat
APSL licence.

Does anyone know if this code can be used at all by BSD projects or did
they blanket relicence everything?
---
Now, I want to bring up some points relating to including a locale
library in PostgreSQL. Given that none of the BSDs seem really
interested in fixing the issue we'll have to do it ourselves (I don't
see anyone else doing it). We can save ourselves effort by basing it on
FreeBSDs locale code, because then we can use their datafiles, which we
*definitly* don't want to maintain ourselves. Now:

1. FreeBSDs locale list is short, some 48 compared with glibc's 217.
Hopefully Apple can expand on that in a way we can use. But given the
difference we should probably give people a way of falling back to the
system libraries in case there's a locale we don't support.

On the other hand, lots of locales are similar so maybe people can find
ones close enough to work. No, glibc and FreeBSD use different file
formats, so you can't copy them.

Do we want this locale data just for collation, or do we want to be
able to use it for formatting monetary amounts too? This is even more
info to store. Lots of languages use ISO/IEC 14651 for order.

2. Locale data needs to be combined with a charset and compiled to work
with the library. PostgreSQL supports at least 15 charsets but we don't
want to ship compiled versions of all of these (Debian learnt that the
hard way). So, how do we generate the files people need.

  a. Auto-compile on demand. First time a locale is referenced spawn
the compiler to create the locale, then continue. (Ugh)
  b. Add a CREATE LOCALE english AS 'en_US' WITH CHARSET 'utf8'. Then
require the COLLATE clause to refer to this identifier. This has some
appeal, seperating the system names from the PostgreSQL names. It also
gives some info regarding charsets.
  c. Should users be allowed to define new locales?
  d. Should admins be required to create the external files using a
program, say pg_createlocale.

Remember, if you use a latin1 locale to sort utf8 you'll get the wrong
result, so we want to avoid that.

3. Compiled locale files are large. One UTF-8 locale datafile can
exceed a megabyte. Do we want the option of disabling it for small
systems?

4. Do we want the option of running system locale in parallel with the
internal ones?

5. I think we're going to have to deal with the very real possibility
that our locale database will not be as good as some of the system
provided ones. The question is how. This is quite unlike timezones
which are quite standardized and rarely change. That database is quite
well maintained.

Would people object to a configure option that selected:
  --with-locales=3Dinternal     (use pg database)
  --with-locales=3Dsystem       (use system database for win32, glibc or Ma=
cOS X)
  --with-locales=3Dnone         (what we support now, which is neither)

I don't think it will be much of an issue to support this, all the
functions take the same parameters and have almost the same names.

6. Locales for SQL_ASCII. Seems to me you have two options, either
reject COLLATE altogether unless they specify a charset, or don't care
and let the user shoot themselves in the foot if they wish...

BTW, this MacOS locale supports seems to be new for 10.4.2 according to
the CVS log info, can anyone confirm this?

Anyway, I hope this post didn't bore too much. Locale support has been
one of those things that has bugged me for a long time and it would be
nice if there could be some real movement.

Have a nice weekend,
--=20
Martijn van Oosterhout   <kleptog@svana.org>   http://svana.org/kleptog/
> Patent. n. Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. A patent is a
> tool for doing 5% of the work and then sitting around waiting for someone
> else to do the other 95% so you can sue them.

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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M72583@postgresql.org Sat Sep  3 17:54:58 2005
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Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org> writes:

> 2. Locale data needs to be combined with a charset and compiled to work
> with the library. PostgreSQL supports at least 15 charsets but we don't
> want to ship compiled versions of all of these (Debian learnt that the
> hard way). So, how do we generate the files people need.

That's just one of many lessons learned the hard way by distributions. Nor
will it be the last innovation in this area.

I really find this instinct of wanting to reimplement large swaths of the OS
inside Postgres (and annoying detail-ridden swaths that are hard to get right
and continually evolving too) to be a bad idea.

I can't believe it's harder to maintain an 

#ifdef HAVE_STRCOL_L
#else
#endif

than it is to try to maintain an entire independent locale library. Nor is it
simpler for sysadmins to have to maintain an entirely separate set of locales
independently from the system locales.

If you really are unhappy enough with OS setlocale implementations to want to
try to do this then it would be more helpful to do it outside of Postgres.
Package up the Apple setlocale library as a separate package that anyone can
install on Solaris, BSD, Linux or whatever. Then Postgres can just say "it
works fine with your OS library but your OS library might be very slow. Here's
a third-party library that you can install that is fast and may relieve any
problems you have with collation performance."

But I think that's getting ahead of things. Until Postgres even supports
collations using the OS libraries you won't even know if that's even
necessary.

-- 
greg


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cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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On Sat, Sep 03, 2005 at 05:44:50PM -0400, Greg Stark wrote:
> [...] Nor is it
> simpler for sysadmins to have to maintain an entirely separate set of loc=
ales
> independently from the system locales.

Indeed, I was already coming up with mechanisms to determine what
locales the system uses and try to autogenerate them. I agree though,
it's not useful for systems that already have complete locale support.
Why add to the burden?

Anyway, my reading of the specs says that we must support the syntax.
It doesn't say we need to support any orderings other than the default
(ie what we do now).

> If you really are unhappy enough with OS setlocale implementations to wan=
t to
> try to do this then it would be more helpful to do it outside of Postgres.
> Package up the Apple setlocale library as a separate package that anyone =
can
> install on Solaris, BSD, Linux or whatever. Then Postgres can just say "it
> works fine with your OS library but your OS library might be very slow. H=
ere's
> a third-party library that you can install that is fast and may relieve a=
ny
> problems you have with collation performance."

That's why I asked about the patches and files that Apple wrote. What
are the licence restrictions? Would we be able to download the, what,
20 files and distribute it as a library. Being APSL we couldn't include
it in the tarball, but it could be a pgfoundry project or something.

If somebody knows a reason why this could not be done, speak up now because
my reading of the APSL licence tells me it's fine.

> But I think that's getting ahead of things. Until Postgres even supports
> collations using the OS libraries you won't even know if that's even
> necessary.

Well, I added COLLATE support for ORDER BY and CREATE INDEX and it
worked in under 200 lines. I'm thinking ahead and I don't think the
COLLATE rules are that hard. Implementing them seems a bit fiddly. It
may be easiest to consider COLLATE a non-associative operator.

I'm still unsure if I should turn the string comparison operators into
three-argument functions.

Anyway, I'll look into the library issue first.
--=20
Martijn van Oosterhout   <kleptog@svana.org>   http://svana.org/kleptog/
> Patent. n. Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. A patent is a
> tool for doing 5% of the work and then sitting around waiting for someone
> else to do the other 95% so you can sue them.

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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M72582@postgresql.org Sat Sep  3 17:46:57 2005
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cc: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>, Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>,
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Proof of concept COLLATE support with patch
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	<87k6hzzems.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <14696.1125675741@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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From: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
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Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> writes:

> Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu> writes:
> > I still doesn't get where the hostility towards this functionality comes from.
> 
> We're not really willing to say "here is a piece of syntax REQUIRED
> BY THE SQL SPEC which we only support on some platforms".  readline,
> O_DIRECT, and the like are a completely inappropriate analogy, because
> those are inherently platform-dependent (and not in the spec).

But that's not the case at all. The syntax can be supported everywhere it
would just be somewhat faster on some platforms than others. It's already
reasonably fast on any platform that caches locale information which includes
glibc and presumably other free software libcs. It would be slightly faster if
there are _l functions. And much slower if the libc setlocale implementation
is braindead. But there's nothing wrong with saying "it's slow because your
libc is slow. Compile with this freely available library which has a better
implementation". The programming syntax would still be exactly 100% the same.

> The objection is fundamentally that a platform-specific implementation
> cannot be our long-term goal, and so expending effort on creating one
> seems like a diversion.  If there were a plan put forward showing how
> this is just a useful way-station, and we could see how we'd later get
> rid of the glibc dependency without throwing away the work already done,
> then it would be a different story.

It's not like the actual calls to setlocale are going to be much code. One day
presumably some variant of these _l functions will become entirely standard.
In which case you're talking about potentially "throwing away" 50 lines of
code. The bulk of the code is going to be parsing and implementing the actual
syntax and behaviour of the SQL spec. And in any case I wouldn't expect it to
ever get thrown away. There will be people compiling on RH9 or similar vintage
systems for a long time.

-- 
greg


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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M72589@postgresql.org Sun Sep  4 13:20:26 2005
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From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Proof of concept COLLATE support with patch
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 19:06:57 +0200
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Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> This is just a proof of concept patch. I didn't send it to -patches
> because as Tom pointed out, there's no hope of it getting in due to
> platform dependant behaviour.

I think it would be best if we defined an internal API for plugging in 
various kinds of locale support.  Then you can hook in this 
"newlocale", the Windows variant, ICU, or plain-old POSIX locale 
support for backward compatibility.  You already identified most of the 
API functions.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

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To: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
cc: Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Proof of concept COLLATE support with patch 
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References: <20050902130420.GA15466@svana.org> <87k6hzzems.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <14696.1125675741@sss.pgh.pa.us> <87u0h1ygu5.fsf@stark.xeocode.com>
Comments: In-reply-to Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
	message dated "03 Sep 2005 17:36:02 -0400"
Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 18:06:11 -0400
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu> writes:
> But there's nothing wrong with saying "it's slow because your
> libc is slow. Compile with this freely available library which has a better
> implementation".

The hole in that argument is the assumption that there *is* a freely
available library that can be used (where freely == BSD license).
We wouldn't be having this discussion if we knew of one.

			regards, tom lane

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To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Proof of concept COLLATE support with patch 
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	message dated "Sun, 04 Sep 2005 19:06:57 +0200"
Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 19:15:21 -0400
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
> I think it would be best if we defined an internal API for plugging in 
> various kinds of locale support.

Agreed ...

> Then you can hook in this 
> "newlocale", the Windows variant, ICU, or plain-old POSIX locale 
> support for backward compatibility.

If plain old POSIX actually did what we needed, we likely wouldn't be
having this discussion at all.  POSIX doesn't give us enough visibility
of the locale's properties (in particular, which character set encoding
it wants).  The performance penalties it imposes are pretty bad also,
though arguably secondary.

			regards, tom lane

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From: Petr Jelinek <pjmodos@seznam.cz>
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Proof of concept COLLATE support with patch
References: <20050902130420.GA15466@svana.org> <87k6hzzems.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <14696.1125675741@sss.pgh.pa.us> <87u0h1ygu5.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <8946.1125871571@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> The hole in that argument is the assumption that there *is* a freely
> available library that can be used (where freely == BSD license).
> We wouldn't be having this discussion if we knew of one.

I see this discussion as another reason to use ICU, I mean complete 
rewrite of locale handling to use ICU on all platforms. I know it's big 
project but it's doable for 8.2 and it would virtually solve all locale 
problems and could be base for new unicode/locale features. I am not 
sure if this is the way postgres wants to go tho (having dependency on 
such a big and uncommon library).

-- 
Regards
Petr Jelinek (PJMODOS)


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From: Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
cc: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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On Sun, Sep 04, 2005 at 06:06:11PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu> writes:
> > But there's nothing wrong with saying "it's slow because your
> > libc is slow. Compile with this freely available library which has a be=
tter
> > implementation".
>=20
> The hole in that argument is the assumption that there *is* a freely
> available library that can be used (where freely =3D=3D BSD license).
> We wouldn't be having this discussion if we knew of one.

1. Use the one in Darwin just for the *BSDs and Solaris at least. It's
not great but it would probably work.

2. Long term, transition to ICU (http://icu.sourceforge.net/) which is
the cross-platform internationalisation library used by Java. Looks
like Mono and Gnome/GTK are going to use this (or at least allow use
of) soon also. It uses the X licence AFAICS. It's a big pill right now
but it a year it could be installed standard on most linux systems.
It's at least avaiable everywhere now.

Note, it's not compatable with POSIX locales so if we go there it'll be
an all or nothing switch. But if we intend to go there eventually, it
makes fiddling on our own library a waste of time.

Incidently, I played with the code in Darwin and getting it to compile
on a system that already has extended locale support is, uh, tricky to
say the least. Lots of conflicting definitions.
--=20
Martijn van Oosterhout   <kleptog@svana.org>   http://svana.org/kleptog/
> Patent. n. Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. A patent is a
> tool for doing 5% of the work and then sitting around waiting for someone
> else to do the other 95% so you can sue them.

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To: kleptog@svana.org
cc: tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us, gsstark@mit.edu, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Locale implementation questions
From: Tatsuo Ishii <t-ishii@sra.co.jp>
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> 3. Compiled locale files are large. One UTF-8 locale datafile can
> exceed a megabyte. Do we want the option of disabling it for small
> systems?

To avoid the problem, you could dynmically load the compiled
tables. The charset conversion tables are handled similar way.

Also I think it's important to allow user defined collate data. To
implement the CREATE COLLATE syntax, we need to have that capability
anyway.

> 4. Do we want the option of running system locale in parallel with the
> internal ones?
> 
> 5. I think we're going to have to deal with the very real possibility
> that our locale database will not be as good as some of the system
> provided ones. The question is how. This is quite unlike timezones
> which are quite standardized and rarely change. That database is quite
> well maintained.
> 
> Would people object to a configure option that selected:
>   --with-locales=internal     (use pg database)
>   --with-locales=system       (use system database for win32, glibc or MacOS X)
>   --with-locales=none         (what we support now, which is neither)
> 
> I don't think it will be much of an issue to support this, all the
> functions take the same parameters and have almost the same names.

To be honest, I don't understand why we have to rely on (often broken)
system locales. I don't think building our own locale data is too
hard, and once we make up it, the maintenace cost will be very small
since it should not be changed regularly. Moreover we could enjoy the
benefit that PostgreSQL handles collations in a corret manner on any
platform which PostgreSQL supports.

> 6. Locales for SQL_ASCII. Seems to me you have two options, either
> reject COLLATE altogether unless they specify a charset, or don't care
> and let the user shoot themselves in the foot if they wish...
> 
> BTW, this MacOS locale supports seems to be new for 10.4.2 according to
> the CVS log info, can anyone confirm this?
> 
> Anyway, I hope this post didn't bore too much. Locale support has been
> one of those things that has bugged me for a long time and it would be
> nice if there could be some real movement.

Right. We Japanese (and probably Chinese too) have been bugged by the
broken mutibyte locales for long time. Using C locale help us to a
certain extent, but for Unicode we need correct locale data, othewise
the sorted data will be completely chaos.
--
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
Tatsuo Ishii

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On Sun, Sep 04, 2005 at 10:25:36PM +0900, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:
> > 3. Compiled locale files are large. One UTF-8 locale datafile can
> > exceed a megabyte. Do we want the option of disabling it for small
> > systems?
>=20
> To avoid the problem, you could dynmically load the compiled
> tables. The charset conversion tables are handled similar way.

That's not the point, ofcourse they are loaded dynamically. The
question is, when do we create the files in the first place. There are
48*15 =3D 750 combinations which would amount to tens of megabytes of
essentially useless data. *When* you create the files is an important
question. Compile time is out.

Charset conversion is completely different, there just arn't that many
combinations.

> Also I think it's important to allow user defined collate data. To
> implement the CREATE COLLATE syntax, we need to have that capability
> anyway.

Most OS's allow you to create collate data yourself anyway, why do we
need to implement this too?

> To be honest, I don't understand why we have to rely on (often broken)
> system locales. I don't think building our own locale data is too
> hard, and once we make up it, the maintenace cost will be very small
> since it should not be changed regularly. Moreover we could enjoy the
> benefit that PostgreSQL handles collations in a corret manner on any
> platform which PostgreSQL supports.

You say building our own locale data is not hard. I disagree, it's a
waste of time we can do without. Unless you know the language yourself
you cannot check changes made by anybody else. If there's an error in
locale ordering, take it up with your OS distributor.

I also think we open ourselves to questions like:

1. My locale is supported by the system but not by PostgreSQL, why?
2. My locale was supported last release but not this one, why?
3. Why does PostgreSQL sort differently from 'sort' or any other app on
my system?

> Right. We Japanese (and probably Chinese too) have been bugged by the
> broken mutibyte locales for long time. Using C locale help us to a
> certain extent, but for Unicode we need correct locale data, othewise
> the sorted data will be completely chaos.

Ok, is glibc still wrong or are they just implementing the unicode
standard and that's what's wrong.

All I'm saying is that we need to allow use of system locales until our
native locale support is mature. In the end something like ICU
(http://icu.sourceforge.net/) will end up obsoleting us. Nobody (in
free-software anyway) uses it yet, but eventually it may be viable to
require that to allow system independant locales.
--=20
Martijn van Oosterhout   <kleptog@svana.org>   http://svana.org/kleptog/
> Patent. n. Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. A patent is a
> tool for doing 5% of the work and then sitting around waiting for someone
> else to do the other 95% so you can sue them.

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To: Tatsuo Ishii <t-ishii@sra.co.jp>
cc: kleptog@svana.org, tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us, gsstark@mit.edu,
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Locale implementation questions
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In-Reply-To: <20050904.222536.39155679.ishii@sraoss.co.jp>
From: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
Organization: The Emacs Conspiracy; member since 1992
Date: 04 Sep 2005 15:02:45 -0400
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Tatsuo Ishii <t-ishii@sra.co.jp> writes:

> To be honest, I don't understand why we have to rely on (often broken)
> system locales. I don't think building our own locale data is too
> hard, and once we make up it, the maintenace cost will be very small
> since it should not be changed regularly. Moreover we could enjoy the
> benefit that PostgreSQL handles collations in a corret manner on any
> platform which PostgreSQL supports.

I think it's sheer madness to try to reproduce large swaths of the OS inside
Postgres because you're unhappy with the quality of the OS implementation. You
should be asking yourself why OS vendors have such a hard time getting this
stuff right and why would Postgres do any better. Wouldn't that work be better
spent improving the database functionality of Postgres?

Or at least better spent improving the locale support for the entire OS? It
would be positively awful if every application on my system had its own locale
database each of which had its own set of bugs and its own feature set.

-- 
greg


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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M72597@postgresql.org Sun Sep  4 19:28:34 2005
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To: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
cc: Tatsuo Ishii <t-ishii@sra.co.jp>, kleptog@svana.org,
   pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Locale implementation questions 
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References: <87k6hzzems.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <14696.1125675741@sss.pgh.pa.us> <20050903203434.GA4281@svana.org> <20050904.222536.39155679.ishii@sraoss.co.jp> <87fysky7u2.fsf@stark.xeocode.com>
Comments: In-reply-to Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
	message dated "04 Sep 2005 15:02:45 -0400"
Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 19:19:38 -0400
Message-ID: <9440.1125875978@sss.pgh.pa.us>
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu> writes:
> I think it's sheer madness to try to reproduce large swaths of the OS
> inside Postgres because you're unhappy with the quality of the OS
> implementation. You should be asking yourself why OS vendors have such
> a hard time getting this stuff right

In the case of the *BSDs, it's pretty obviously because they don't care.

> and why would Postgres do any better

In the first place, we do care, and in the second place, having to deal
with only one set of locale bugs would in itself be a huge advance over
where we are now.

We went over to maintaining our own timezone code for more or less the
same reasons, and in hindsight that was obviously the right decision.
Locale support is a bigger chunk, no doubt about it, but we also have
a lot of motivation.

			regards, tom lane

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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M72619@postgresql.org Mon Sep  5 18:14:28 2005
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Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 23:59:33 +0200
From: Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] Install Darwin's locale library on your system :)
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Well, it was pointed out the other day that the Darwin C library
supports the non-standard extensions to the POSIX locale interface and
that this might be ported to other systems so PostgreSQL could use it.

So, I have written a few scripts which download the libc and locale
library from darwinsource, shuffle some files around and build the
result into a library called libdummylocale.so. It basically completely
replaces your locale support on whatever system you use it on.

It's all under the APSL, though some parts may be BSD licenced.

Let me say right now, the locale support here sucks, no two ways about
it. It doesn't support a single UTF-8 locale. Oh, it lets you specify
them, but when you ask for the CHARSET it still says US-ASCII. It does
support a number of other different charsets. (Not for collation
though).

So my challenge to those people who think maintaining a locale library
is easy: make *one* locale in FreeBSD (or Darwin or this lib) support
full UTF-8 collation in whatever locale and/or charset you choose. It's
all downhill from there.

While it builds simple programs, I don't think it's totally safe. You'd
need to rename the headers at least. And building on Darwin will
probably blow up due to the way it plays fast and loose with Darwin
specific #defines. But it's a beginning if anyone is interested. It
builds in my glibc system.

I'm going to drop the idea of making a locale library, there's just
nothing good enough. glibc is the only thing that comes close. From here
on I'm going to work on COLLATE for systems that support xlocale, with
an eye on ICU if/when it becomes standard enough.

Download: http://svana.org/kleptog/pgsql/dummylocale.tar.gz

Have a nice day,
--=20
Martijn van Oosterhout   <kleptog@svana.org>   http://svana.org/kleptog/
> Patent. n. Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. A patent is a
> tool for doing 5% of the work and then sitting around waiting for someone
> else to do the other 95% so you can sue them.

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From pgsql-patches-owner+M17366@postgresql.org Wed Sep  7 12:16:02 2005
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From: Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
To: pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: [PATCHES] For review: Initial support for COLLATE
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[Please CC any replies, thanks]

This patch is the beginnings of support for COLLATE. I need to do some
other work for a few days so I'm posting here to get some initial
reviews. Various parts are marked [done] and [not done].

The steps involved are:

- Add COLLATE to grammer as part of expression tree. New CollateClause
  node stores the relevent facts. [done]

- parse_expr goes through tree and determines the appropriate COLLATE
  state for each node as per SQL spec. [done]

  Note: PostgreSQL doesn't really have a way to identify text-like
  types and there's no real need to anyway. The implementation allows
  any node to have a collate state. This can be used for other things,
  see below.

- CREATE COLLATE statement [not done, currently added on the fly]

- Two new datatypes, pg_locale_t and pg_localedata_t. The former
  represents a locale (and will eventually have an OID). The latter is
  an anonymous cookie that stores locale specific information and is
  passed to functions that need it. It may be that once done, this
  latter type will vanish again. [done]

- Several utility functions in the new file pg_xlocale.c for use by the
  rest of the system. [done]

- Add boolean column 'proislocalized' to pg_proc which indicates if the
  output of this function is affected by the LOCALE. eg textcat doesn't
  care but textle does. [done] This is for:

  a) So the parser can complain about functions that look at the
     locale/collate order but it's not clear from the arguments (state
     None per SQL spec) and it's not specified explicitly. [not done]

  b) So when a column or function is indexed, the index code knows if
     the locale is relevent to sorting order. This is particularly
     interesting for btree indexes on character strings. [not done]

  Currently I've marked 58 functions as being locale sensetive, but
  that list will need careful going over. To some extent it can be
  checked automatically by examining which backend functions use the
  new PG_GETLOCALE() macro.

- Check for correct encoding in loaded locales [not done]

- Check the partial indexes do the right thing when matching
  expressions. [not done]

- Docs, regression, etc...

- make check: right now I'm getting some regressions in the rules
  and plpgsql, very odd... Possibly due to the fact that rules get
  collate nodes with locales that don't persist across invokations.

Goals:

- This setup extends the SQL spec a bit, in the sense that COLLATE can
  be attached to anything. It is my intention to allow functions such
  as to_char() and to_timestamp() to be localized. eg:

test=3D# select cash_out('1.00'::money collate 'nl_NL'), cash_out('1.00'::m=
oney collate 'en_AU');
 cash_out | cash_out=20
----------+----------
 EUR1,00  | $1.00
(1 row)

- Should LOCALE be created as a synonym for COLLATE? It reads more
  naturally.

- Currently LC_COLLATE is fixed at initdb and LC_NUMERIC and
  LC_CURRENCY can be altered. The idea is that eventually even
  LC_COLLATE can be altered anytime (from the users point view anyway),
  as any objects that care will store the collate order they want and
  can execute functions as appropriate.

- Eventually once the transition to full locale support is complete,
  change the backend so it always runs under locale C and only
  functions on userdata are affected by locales. This means that
  unquoted identifiers when converted to lowercase will be lowered as
  per ASCII rules. Judging by [1] this is what people want, but
  feedback would be nice.

[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org/msg39742.html

  Hence, right now, names compare using normal strcmp, but text,
  varchar, etc use strcoll.

- The patch as it currently stands won't compile at all without system
  xlocale support. The goal is to provide some level of backward
  compatability where the COLLATE clause can be used, but only to
  affect functions like to_char(). Changing COLLATE order would be
  forbidden (ie just like now).

- Eventually, once the parts relevent to locales are sufficiently
  abstracted, look into ICU to plug it in. Unfortunatly, it's a
  completely different model (all utf-16) so that's another phase
  altogether.

- The default type output functions should never be locale specific.
  This is to avoid issues with pgdump and frontends. Create a function
  'localize(anyelement)' to "do the obvious" to force it to happen.

Download:=20
  Compressed 57K, uncompressed >500K but that's due to rewriting the
  whole of pg_proc. The important code is not so big. Against todays
  CVS.

http://svana.org/kleptog/pgsql/collate2.patch.gz

Examples:

test=3D# SELECT text('a') < text('B') COLLATE 'C', text('a') < text('B') CO=
LLATE 'en_US.UTF-8';
 ?column? | ?column?=20
----------+----------
 f        | t
(1 row)

test=3D# SELECT text('A') < text('b') COLLATE 'C', text('A') < text('b') CO=
LLATE 'en_US.UTF-8';
 ?column? | ?column?=20
----------+----------
 t        | t
(1 row)

test=3D# SELECT text('A') COLLATE 'en_US.UTF-8' < text('b') COLLATE 'C';
ERROR:  Conflicting COLLATE clauses

Have a nice day,
--=20
Martijn van Oosterhout   <kleptog@svana.org>   http://svana.org/kleptog/
> Patent. n. Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. A patent is a
> tool for doing 5% of the work and then sitting around waiting for someone
> else to do the other 95% so you can sue them.

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From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
To: Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCHES] For review: Initial support for COLLATE
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:12:12 +0200
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Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> - Should LOCALE be created as a synonym for COLLATE? It reads more
>   naturally.

No, and in fact the terminology mixup in your patch and description 
concerns me.  If you are talking about collation, then the data types, 
system catalog columns, etc. should talk about collation, not about 
"locale", because that encompasses a number of other things that can be 
handled independent of the collation order.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

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